Well, she’s resigning, so she’s not wrong at all. If she feels like she is being asked to do something that is against her morals and values and she is not being allowed to refuse, than she has to resign and more power to her. Nobody should be expected to do things that they are strongly opposed to in the course of their jobs. Get another job.
It’s a bit different for a business owner, however. They can’t just go get a different job and in theory, how they run their own business which belongs to them,should be left to their discretion.
I have. According to Mark 12:17 and Matthew 22:21, you are supposed to “render unto Caesar”, which means obey the government’s rules. Then there’s Romans 13, which says God has established those in authority, so submit to those in power.
But it doesn’t matter that the Bible says she’s wrong. She took an oath to serve the public, refused to do what the law requires, and also refused to resign. She earned her penalty.
Invisible Mikey… you are wrong. She has not refused to do what the LAW requires. Tell me, what LAW has she refused to obey? The Supreme Court did NOT CREATE a LAW! They do not have the authority to make laws. The merely made a ruling on the subject, but CONGRESS, which is the ONLY authority to create federal laws has NOT (yet) made any law allowing for same-sex marriages! Therefore, Ms. Davis does not have the authority to issue same-sex marriage licenses even if she wanted to! And the judge who ordered her to do it? He cannot do so either! A judges order, just like a police officers order, must be a LAWFUL order. That is, one backed up by a LAW – for which, in this case there is none authorizing ANYONE to issue a same-sex license, much less requiring someone to do so contrary to religious beliefs!
I didn’t refer to the Supreme Court decision at all, so you wasted your time with your entire comment. It’s her own state court’s order she violated. That’s why she’s in jail. Don’t try passing this off as being about SCOTUS. All they did was refuse to hear her appeal.
UPDATE: County Clerk Kim Davis Jailed
September 4, 2015 / admin / Blog, From the Field, Matt’s Blog 1394463_605159912877073_2019062009_n
Yesterday a federal judge imprisoned Kim Davis. The judge declared that she must uphold the law. We respond by saying: What law? There is not a single law in the whole state of Kentucky that requires any public official to accommodate homosexual marriage. In fact, every law in the entire state requires that they NOT accommodate homosexual marriage.
Furthermore, there is not a single federal law within all the thousands of plethora of federal laws that requires Kentucky officials to marry homosexuals.
The truth is Kim Davis is upholding the law. She is trying to rein in the lawlessness of the federal judiciary. The Supreme Court is the anarchist here – Kim Davis is trying to restore order.
The American people have been fed a fiction – that everyone must obey the Supreme Court because of the Supremacy Clause.
When you read the Supremacy Clause however – Article 6, paragraph 2 of the U.S. Constitution – you see that the Supreme Court or federal courts are not even mentioned. Rather, what has supremacy is the U. S. Constitution itself and all laws or treaties made in accordance with the Constitution.
True federalism understands that all magistrates – whatever their level or sphere of jurisdiction – possess lawful authority. And that whenever one branch of government begins to play the tyrant – all other branches (whether federal, state, county, or local) have the duty then more than ever to uphold the Constitution and oppose that branch acting tyrannically – even if that branch is the Supreme Court.
Let us say loud and clear: The Supreme Court cannot make law. That takes legislators. Their opinion is not the ‘law of the land.’
What Kim Davis has done is not about religious liberty – it is about reining in a lawless federal judiciary.
It is now incumbent upon all other magistrates – sheriff’s, district attorneys, judges from all spheres of government, and legislators from all spheres of government – to rally around Kim Davis, interpose on her behalf, and defy a lawless federal judiciary.
It is now incumbent upon the people to rally around Kim Davis and assure her of their support – with their persons, with their finances, with their prayers. They must also prod their state and federal magistrates to interpose on her behalf and defy the lawlessness of the federal judiciary.
Kim Davis is to be commended. Precious few magistrates in our nation have decided not to pay homage to the Supreme Court. But this has been the history of Christian people. Because their fealty is to Christ first and not the State – they benefit the civil authorities and the nation as a whole.
By their refusal to comply with immoral decrees by the State, they remind the civil authority that their authority is delegated and has limits. Perhaps it will cause those acting tyrannically to recover themselves and repent. They also benefit the nation – because their obedience to Christ and subsequent suffering acts as a check against tyranny and preserves liberty and moral sanity.
You can write to encourage Kim Davis at:
Kim Davis c/o Carter County Detention Center 13 Crossbar Rd. Grayson, KY 41143
I’ve heard this argument before. It ignores entirely the principle of Judicial Review, a power of the Supreme Court granted in the Constitution. If they decide (as they did) that laws prohibiting same sex marriage are unconstitutional (violations of the 14th Amendment), then all state and local laws prohibiting it are void. So the legal requirements for who can marry in KY can NOT include the gender of those seeking license, only the state’s age, residency and other requirements.
Laws change all the time. If she can’t abide by the change, she should resign. Government paper-pushers don’t get to choose which laws they can follow and which they don’t have to based on personal beliefs, no matter how deep they run. As the judge who jailed her put it, “Oaths matter.”
26. For this reason God gave them up to vile passions. For even their women exchanged the natural use for what is against nature.
27. Likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust for one another, men with men committing what is shameful, and receiving in themselves the penalty of their error which was due.
Romans 1:26-27
I’m not the kind of guy to trash comments merely because they are entirely off-topic. I should think getting married, codifying in public a monogamous relationship you intend to make permanent would be the cure for “unnatural lust”.
Seems to me that most reasoned, seasoned Christians (RSCs) should understand that Kim:
IS RIGHT
– In holding the conviction that same-sex marriage is wrong.
– In knowing that her biblical convictions must be a major contributor in determining her actions.
IS WRONG
– For taking significant actions which violate most RSCs’ broad understanding of Scripture.
– For taking significant actions which violate most RSAmericans’ understanding of the ‘US Rule of Law.’
This said, the major story for the Church is no longer Kim Davis. No, it’s the significant number of high-level, respected evangelical Christian leaders who side lockstep with the ‘Kim actions’ without, in my opinion, rightly dividing the issues at hand.
Though different from the person in almost every way, Kim Davis has unwittingly become a ‘Donald Trump’ for the Church: an agent for exposing the deep short-comings of leadership.
She’s following one version of Christianity. She used to follow a different version. There are a couple hundred other versions of Christianity available. And all the religious stuff is irrelevant. If a person promises to do a job and the job changes to something you can’t accept morally, if you have any sense of honor, you resign. But she wants to keep collecting that 80 grand, even from taxpayers who are paying her to discriminate against them.
Maybe Trump voters would feel a kind of kinship, but I can’t really see a gubmint paper pusher as very similar to a reality TV mogul. I view her as exposing the deep shortcomings of institutionalized religion in general. Fundamentalism in any flavor leads nowhere good.
I think they should have removed her somehow. Do you impeach her? Darn if I know the protocol. Pretty sure you have to be elected for clerk. She could have had her deputies do it and spared her conscience before now. Mind you, I don’t think she should have been jailed. Losing her job should have done the trick. Now she’s a persecuted saint .
You’re right, Lisa, she’s elected. That meant the judge confronting her about defying a direct court order had only three choices, and a duty to see the law move forward. He could do nothing and wait for the KY legislature, which doesn’t meet again until Jan. No licenses for anyone for months. He could fine her, but he said he knew outside organizations would pay her fines. Or he could give her a “time out” in the Mayberry jail. The jail decision actually worked! When he told the 6 deputy clerks if they didn’t issue the licenses, they would be jailed too, 5 said, “No problem! She wasn’t letting us do it.” The other deputy, her son, promised not to interfere.
She might still lose her job over this, but impeachment is a slow process, and has to be followed after by a conviction.
Nicely laid out opinions Mikey, its good to see people able to have a view without the pitchfork and torch. Personally I think chucking her in jail was political show-boating, elected or not there should be a way to remove her, and it seems to me refusal to do ones job is simple and honest enough. Worse things than this happen every day at the hands of elected or appointed officials and most people (outside the immediate area) never hear about it, or care. Does this discourage you? Reading about tripe like this discourages me, we have gone from a country that can fight a war on two fronts against the Axis powers to a country where a smallish story about a woman who wont slide a piece of paper across a counter stops the presses. S
It’s not my work. I only re-blogged it. But I think she had the judge painted into a corner, and jail was really all he could do to move things forward.
As a Professional, I am employed to do a job, and to be impartial doing it. I am not allowed to show preference to any client nor am I allowed to prejudice any. If I can not fulfill the conditions of my contract in doing that then I should not be doing the work that I do.
As a European, as far as I can see, someone’s personal views should not take preference to their work, and if there is then they need to find alternative work where there is no such conflict.
As a person of the Christian faith, I have learned that there are many areas in life where I have to ask “What would Jesus do?”. I also realize as I get older that I am not “jury and executioner” to my fellow man and woman, for their every wrong I probably have two of my own.
I have in the past been torn about the issue of homosexuality, but got to know gay people as friends and now I am more comfortable living my life by the phrase “judge not and be not judged”. I think that I will leave the right’s or wrong’s of this issue (and many others) to God because he is far more qualified to carry out judgement that I ever could be.
I was horrified and saddened at the tone of many of the comments, both here and in the linked article, Surely even if you violently disagree you should be able to voice your opinion in a calm and respectful manner? Respect tends to breed respect, I was appalled to see so little respect in many of the comments. That is not the epitome or fundamentals of Christianity to me.
Mrs. Davis is an outlier. In animal training we call her behavior an “extinction burst”. When an animal is being directed by a superior force (reward) away from an undesirable behavior they are used to, they sometimes double-down and try to do it MORE for a short period (temper tantrums, barking, whatever) just before acquiescing to the change.
She thought her moment in the spotlight indicated a revival of public acceptance and support for her views, but it’s the momentary flare of a used-up candle in the process of being extinguished. The media and the audience have completely moved on to issues surrounding the 2016 elections.
Invisible Mikey 
Well, she’s resigning, so she’s not wrong at all. If she feels like she is being asked to do something that is against her morals and values and she is not being allowed to refuse, than she has to resign and more power to her. Nobody should be expected to do things that they are strongly opposed to in the course of their jobs. Get another job.
It’s a bit different for a business owner, however. They can’t just go get a different job and in theory, how they run their own business which belongs to them,should be left to their discretion.
Just because you stop doing something wrong doesn’t make it retroactively right that you did it.
If the latest news is correct, she has refused to resign, saying she has done her job well:
http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/latest-marriage-licenses-kentucky-clerks-office-33449203
Read your BIBLE and you will find out just how right Kim Davis is.
I have. According to Mark 12:17 and Matthew 22:21, you are supposed to “render unto Caesar”, which means obey the government’s rules. Then there’s Romans 13, which says God has established those in authority, so submit to those in power.
But it doesn’t matter that the Bible says she’s wrong. She took an oath to serve the public, refused to do what the law requires, and also refused to resign. She earned her penalty.
Invisible Mikey… you are wrong. She has not refused to do what the LAW requires. Tell me, what LAW has she refused to obey? The Supreme Court did NOT CREATE a LAW! They do not have the authority to make laws. The merely made a ruling on the subject, but CONGRESS, which is the ONLY authority to create federal laws has NOT (yet) made any law allowing for same-sex marriages! Therefore, Ms. Davis does not have the authority to issue same-sex marriage licenses even if she wanted to! And the judge who ordered her to do it? He cannot do so either! A judges order, just like a police officers order, must be a LAWFUL order. That is, one backed up by a LAW – for which, in this case there is none authorizing ANYONE to issue a same-sex license, much less requiring someone to do so contrary to religious beliefs!
I didn’t refer to the Supreme Court decision at all, so you wasted your time with your entire comment. It’s her own state court’s order she violated. That’s why she’s in jail. Don’t try passing this off as being about SCOTUS. All they did was refuse to hear her appeal.
UPDATE: County Clerk Kim Davis Jailed
September 4, 2015 / admin / Blog, From the Field, Matt’s Blog 1394463_605159912877073_2019062009_n
Yesterday a federal judge imprisoned Kim Davis. The judge declared that she must uphold the law. We respond by saying: What law? There is not a single law in the whole state of Kentucky that requires any public official to accommodate homosexual marriage. In fact, every law in the entire state requires that they NOT accommodate homosexual marriage.
Furthermore, there is not a single federal law within all the thousands of plethora of federal laws that requires Kentucky officials to marry homosexuals.
The truth is Kim Davis is upholding the law. She is trying to rein in the lawlessness of the federal judiciary. The Supreme Court is the anarchist here – Kim Davis is trying to restore order.
The American people have been fed a fiction – that everyone must obey the Supreme Court because of the Supremacy Clause.
When you read the Supremacy Clause however – Article 6, paragraph 2 of the U.S. Constitution – you see that the Supreme Court or federal courts are not even mentioned. Rather, what has supremacy is the U. S. Constitution itself and all laws or treaties made in accordance with the Constitution.
True federalism understands that all magistrates – whatever their level or sphere of jurisdiction – possess lawful authority. And that whenever one branch of government begins to play the tyrant – all other branches (whether federal, state, county, or local) have the duty then more than ever to uphold the Constitution and oppose that branch acting tyrannically – even if that branch is the Supreme Court.
Let us say loud and clear: The Supreme Court cannot make law. That takes legislators. Their opinion is not the ‘law of the land.’
What Kim Davis has done is not about religious liberty – it is about reining in a lawless federal judiciary.
It is now incumbent upon all other magistrates – sheriff’s, district attorneys, judges from all spheres of government, and legislators from all spheres of government – to rally around Kim Davis, interpose on her behalf, and defy a lawless federal judiciary.
It is now incumbent upon the people to rally around Kim Davis and assure her of their support – with their persons, with their finances, with their prayers. They must also prod their state and federal magistrates to interpose on her behalf and defy the lawlessness of the federal judiciary.
Kim Davis is to be commended. Precious few magistrates in our nation have decided not to pay homage to the Supreme Court. But this has been the history of Christian people. Because their fealty is to Christ first and not the State – they benefit the civil authorities and the nation as a whole.
By their refusal to comply with immoral decrees by the State, they remind the civil authority that their authority is delegated and has limits. Perhaps it will cause those acting tyrannically to recover themselves and repent. They also benefit the nation – because their obedience to Christ and subsequent suffering acts as a check against tyranny and preserves liberty and moral sanity.
You can write to encourage Kim Davis at:
Kim Davis c/o Carter County Detention Center 13 Crossbar Rd. Grayson, KY 41143
I’ve heard this argument before. It ignores entirely the principle of Judicial Review, a power of the Supreme Court granted in the Constitution. If they decide (as they did) that laws prohibiting same sex marriage are unconstitutional (violations of the 14th Amendment), then all state and local laws prohibiting it are void. So the legal requirements for who can marry in KY can NOT include the gender of those seeking license, only the state’s age, residency and other requirements.
Laws change all the time. If she can’t abide by the change, she should resign. Government paper-pushers don’t get to choose which laws they can follow and which they don’t have to based on personal beliefs, no matter how deep they run. As the judge who jailed her put it, “Oaths matter.”
26. For this reason God gave them up to vile passions. For even their women exchanged the natural use for what is against nature.
27. Likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust for one another, men with men committing what is shameful, and receiving in themselves the penalty of their error which was due.
Romans 1:26-27
I’m not the kind of guy to trash comments merely because they are entirely off-topic. I should think getting married, codifying in public a monogamous relationship you intend to make permanent would be the cure for “unnatural lust”.
Seems to me that most reasoned, seasoned Christians (RSCs) should understand that Kim:
IS RIGHT
– In holding the conviction that same-sex marriage is wrong.
– In knowing that her biblical convictions must be a major contributor in determining her actions.
IS WRONG
– For taking significant actions which violate most RSCs’ broad understanding of Scripture.
– For taking significant actions which violate most RSAmericans’ understanding of the ‘US Rule of Law.’
This said, the major story for the Church is no longer Kim Davis. No, it’s the significant number of high-level, respected evangelical Christian leaders who side lockstep with the ‘Kim actions’ without, in my opinion, rightly dividing the issues at hand.
Though different from the person in almost every way, Kim Davis has unwittingly become a ‘Donald Trump’ for the Church: an agent for exposing the deep short-comings of leadership.
She’s following one version of Christianity. She used to follow a different version. There are a couple hundred other versions of Christianity available. And all the religious stuff is irrelevant. If a person promises to do a job and the job changes to something you can’t accept morally, if you have any sense of honor, you resign. But she wants to keep collecting that 80 grand, even from taxpayers who are paying her to discriminate against them.
Maybe Trump voters would feel a kind of kinship, but I can’t really see a gubmint paper pusher as very similar to a reality TV mogul. I view her as exposing the deep shortcomings of institutionalized religion in general. Fundamentalism in any flavor leads nowhere good.
I think they should have removed her somehow. Do you impeach her? Darn if I know the protocol. Pretty sure you have to be elected for clerk. She could have had her deputies do it and spared her conscience before now. Mind you, I don’t think she should have been jailed. Losing her job should have done the trick. Now she’s a persecuted saint .
You’re right, Lisa, she’s elected. That meant the judge confronting her about defying a direct court order had only three choices, and a duty to see the law move forward. He could do nothing and wait for the KY legislature, which doesn’t meet again until Jan. No licenses for anyone for months. He could fine her, but he said he knew outside organizations would pay her fines. Or he could give her a “time out” in the Mayberry jail. The jail decision actually worked! When he told the 6 deputy clerks if they didn’t issue the licenses, they would be jailed too, 5 said, “No problem! She wasn’t letting us do it.” The other deputy, her son, promised not to interfere.
She might still lose her job over this, but impeachment is a slow process, and has to be followed after by a conviction.
Nicely laid out opinions Mikey, its good to see people able to have a view without the pitchfork and torch. Personally I think chucking her in jail was political show-boating, elected or not there should be a way to remove her, and it seems to me refusal to do ones job is simple and honest enough. Worse things than this happen every day at the hands of elected or appointed officials and most people (outside the immediate area) never hear about it, or care. Does this discourage you? Reading about tripe like this discourages me, we have gone from a country that can fight a war on two fronts against the Axis powers to a country where a smallish story about a woman who wont slide a piece of paper across a counter stops the presses. S
It’s not my work. I only re-blogged it. But I think she had the judge painted into a corner, and jail was really all he could do to move things forward.
Mikey,
As a Professional, I am employed to do a job, and to be impartial doing it. I am not allowed to show preference to any client nor am I allowed to prejudice any. If I can not fulfill the conditions of my contract in doing that then I should not be doing the work that I do.
As a European, as far as I can see, someone’s personal views should not take preference to their work, and if there is then they need to find alternative work where there is no such conflict.
As a person of the Christian faith, I have learned that there are many areas in life where I have to ask “What would Jesus do?”. I also realize as I get older that I am not “jury and executioner” to my fellow man and woman, for their every wrong I probably have two of my own.
I have in the past been torn about the issue of homosexuality, but got to know gay people as friends and now I am more comfortable living my life by the phrase “judge not and be not judged”. I think that I will leave the right’s or wrong’s of this issue (and many others) to God because he is far more qualified to carry out judgement that I ever could be.
I was horrified and saddened at the tone of many of the comments, both here and in the linked article, Surely even if you violently disagree you should be able to voice your opinion in a calm and respectful manner? Respect tends to breed respect, I was appalled to see so little respect in many of the comments. That is not the epitome or fundamentals of Christianity to me.
Mrs. Davis is an outlier. In animal training we call her behavior an “extinction burst”. When an animal is being directed by a superior force (reward) away from an undesirable behavior they are used to, they sometimes double-down and try to do it MORE for a short period (temper tantrums, barking, whatever) just before acquiescing to the change.
She thought her moment in the spotlight indicated a revival of public acceptance and support for her views, but it’s the momentary flare of a used-up candle in the process of being extinguished. The media and the audience have completely moved on to issues surrounding the 2016 elections.